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 Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England

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Winner and Margin
England 13+
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England 1-12
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Draw
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Australia 1-12
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Australia 13+
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Total Votes : 6
 

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Hendo Maroon
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PostSubject: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 2:14 am

Wallabies play their first test of the Grand Slam Tour against the dirty Poms. And guess who's back? Jonny's Back! That's right, easily the most overrated player in Rugby Unions professional era is back to take his spot in the number 10 jersey for England. Aussie will go in as favourites but I think England could get the win, infact I'm betting on England. Although I think Wilkinson is overrated, he does seem to add a massive boost to that England side.

Kick off is at 1:30am (AEDT) Sunday Morning. Definitely worth staying up for should be a close game. Don't expect to many tries though Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_biggrin

Oh and Aussie have started off the Tour with a win over Carlos Spencers side Gloucester 36-5.

FINAL SQUADS FOR THE MATCH TO BE ANNOUNCED

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 2:16 am

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 2:17 am

Thanks for your contribution MWF...any reason to why you think Aussie will get up?

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:14 am

Hows Jonny overrated? He won us the world cup off his own boot and in the early years of this decade he was the best 10 in the world by a mile. Ill admit since the final hes gone downhill bloody quick but whenever he pulls on the england jersey like u said hendo, he provides a massive boost for us Very Happy

The Wallabies will be up for this one (youd hope so) though after another poor performance in Tokyo and it should be a pretty good game.
I hope England can get up, but ill say Wallabies by 3. Hoping for a fairly open game too but with the kicking of JW in the team England will go for 3 whenever possible i think.
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:23 am

I'm picking England to do it like they always have - run the Wallabie forwards into the ground while Wilkinson picks off the goals like a sniper.

Just a note a_F_c - Wilkinson didn't win the WC, the forward pack did. Sure he's deadly accurate with the boot and guides the team well, but giving him virtually sole credit for the win (which most people, consciously or otherwise) seem to - is like giving the likes of Scott Hamilton sole credit for all the tries he scored - virtually all of which were just being at the end of massive team and back-line moves.

As for how is he overrated? This picture sums it up Smile

Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Wilkin10
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:26 am

haha great pic P'Rus. Yea main reason I think he was overrated is that all he could do was kick. The fly halves that NZ have had in the last decade (Mehrts, Spencer, Carter...) have all had so much more skills. Dumb thing is, everyone is too afraid to try anything in the WC so just settles with the kicking game

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:30 am

fair enough i spose, ur opinons Wink ill always love him baha. and fair point with the forwards too now i think about it, they were immense

i laughed at the photo too, so true Laughing its a shame really coz it bores me to tears the way its being played lately, but u cant blame the teams really...if uve got the good kicker u should use him
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:41 am

Yeah I love that pic Smile Saw it a long time ago and laughed my head off!

Wilkinson is a great fly-half - no doubt about that. He can control a game very well with his boot - kind of like a gamer playing RTS like Command & Conquer - the actual work done by others but he's controlling it (not a great example but hopefully paints the right picture).

On the other side of the coin you have a fly-half like Giteau - he has a massive running game (something Wilkinson is completely without) and a wide array of skills other than just kicking; but his real weakness (and this impacts the whole Wallaby outfit) is that he can't CONTROL the game. Larkham could, very well - and we've all seen how they Wallabies went with him. This is why I supported the move of putting Barnes at 10 as I think he has the ability to control the game while Giteau can just run riot from 12 - much like Jean de Villiers has done for many years in the Springboks. A big reason Wellington and Hurricanes so often fall over in key matches is that they've never really had a flyhalf who can control the game - they've had guys with a lot of skill, but never quite able to guide things around. Can Cruden do it? Well that's a topic for another thread Smile

Then of course you've got Carter who, not trying to boast here, has both. He has all the skills of Giteau, plus the tactical nous and guiding abilities of Wilkinson...
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 5:50 am

no doubt, Carter is a freak Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 6:31 am

Wilkinson completely without a running game is a joke. He has that too and is probably the most dangerous England back. Not only did he help them win in 03, he helped a side that was completely written off make it all the way to the final in 07. Much more than Dan Carter has ever done
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 7:36 am

Hahahaha Wilkinson the most dangerous English back? If he doesn't kick he's useless. Carter is twice the fly half Wilkinson ever was.

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 8:14 am

What is Carter's main achievement at the world cup? Making himself available for selection when he clearly wasn't up to it and there was someone, who was in better form than him at the time, that would have been able to get us through that game. Wilkinson has all the skills just isn't recognised for that as his kicking is so great it over shadows his other attributes
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 8:18 am

Wilkinson's kicking game is what one the World Cup. that is the only weapon he has. That unfortunately is what has won the last few WCs, a decent kicking game. That is what Northern Hemisphere rugby is based on. Its boring to watch.

Carter will step up in the WC in 2011 and I cant wait. I want to see more than 1 or 2 tries in a WC final.

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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 8:24 am

It would be nice to be that confident in Carter being able to step up, but the way he played in the biggest game of the year for the All Blacks, the SA test in Hamilton, suggests that he might not be the savior when the heat really comes on
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 10:13 am

My God you talk some absolute tripe Chris...

You're right about one thing though - Wilkinson certainly was the most dangerous back - considering he was the only one who ever saw the ball because England played such blatant 10-man rugby.

Did I say Wilkinson was completely without a running game? No I didn't. He's not known for a running game, he almost never displays it, and he's certainly not nearly as good at it as Giteau and Carter.
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:11 am

So Carter was up to playing in that quarter final? Carter played well in Hamilton? And you did say he was completely without one...
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:22 am

chrishbhs wrote:
What is Carter's main achievement at the world cup? Making himself available for selection when he clearly wasn't up to it and there was someone, who was in better form than him at the time, that would have been able to get us through that game. Wilkinson has all the skills just isn't recognised for that as his kicking is so great it over shadows his other attributes

I presume you're referring to Evans - who also got injured after he got on? so he hardly managed to get us through the game now did he?

And ultimately its the coach's decison to select a player, whether he declares himself fit or otherwise. That was a calculated gamble that ultimately didnt pay off, but either way, its hardly Carters fault for wanting to do his bit. The entire NZ rugby public wanted him to play as much as he did, dont pretend you were any different.

The Lions 05 tour showed the gulf in class between Wilkinson and Carter as a running five eigth. That tour was the biggest occasion in NZ rugby outside of a WC and when the pressure was on, DC made him look like a geriatric.
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:53 am

If Evans had started the game, maybe he never would have been in the position to get injured. And no, I wasn't like everyone else thinking Carter should start, I thought that Evans was the better player at the time. That Lions team was an absolute disaster and everyone knows that so it is pretty easy to look good against them, Wilkinson was coming in off very little rugby and they were trying him in other positions. Has Carter ever really regained that form of that series?
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 12:22 pm

chrishbhs wrote:
If Evans had started the game, maybe he never would have been in the position to get injured. And no, I wasn't like everyone else thinking Carter should start, I thought that Evans was the better player at the time. That Lions team was an absolute disaster and everyone knows that so it is pretty easy to look good against them, Wilkinson was coming in off very little rugby and they were trying him in other positions. Has Carter ever really regained that form of that series?

Key word there, no point speculating
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 12:29 pm

The point I am trying to make is that Carter isn't perfect as alot of people and the media seem to believe, I'm not saying he doesnt have a chance to prove he is great, but at this stage he hasn't done much to rival what Wilkinson has achieved
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 9:22 pm

chrishbhs wrote:
If Evans had started the game, maybe he never would have been in the position to get injured. And no, I wasn't like everyone else thinking Carter should start, I thought that Evans was the better player at the time. That Lions team was an absolute disaster and everyone knows that so it is pretty easy to look good against them, Wilkinson was coming in off very little rugby and they were trying him in other positions. Has Carter ever really regained that form of that series?

No he hasnt but has Wilkinson ever regained the form of 03? I agree that Wilkinson had little rugby behind him in 05, yet you also highlight Carters efforts in Hamilton this year when the same applied to him? You cant have it both ways....

And when we judge the Lions efforts in 05 and say they were a disaster, whats that based on? They were made to look rubbish by the very, very good group of players we happened to have at the time, Carter included. The same AB squad that went on to lose only one test all year, while achieving a Grand Slam using two completely different starting XV's.

When you compare the best efforts either player has ever produced (Wilkinson 03 v Carter 05) its pretty obvious who is the better player.

The only thing your argument seems to rest on is Wilkinson winning a WC because thats the only diifference on their international resumes. So by that token, do you also think Neil Back is a better openside than Richie McCaw?
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 10:30 pm

That Lions team struggled to win the provincial games and got hammered in the tests. It is very easy to look good in a dominant side. That is in no way the toughest challenge that Carter has ever faced. Wilkinson was pretty close to 03 form in the 07 world cup, because he brings his best game to the big occasions and he helped a England team with way less talent than the All Blacks or Wallabies to the final. Based on past performances, if I wanted to win a WC, I would choose Wilkinson over Carter
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:28 pm

chrishbhs wrote:
That Lions team struggled to win the provincial games and got hammered in the tests. It is very easy to look good in a dominant side. That is in no way the toughest challenge that Carter has ever faced. Wilkinson was pretty close to 03 form in the 07 world cup, because he brings his best game to the big occasions and he helped a England team with way less talent than the All Blacks or Wallabies to the final. Based on past performances, if I wanted to win a WC, I would choose Wilkinson over Carter

I disagree. The provincial games dont compare because they played two separate squads so those results weren't a reflection on the test squad.

That Lions team arrived with huge expectations and the pressure on the All Blacks was immense, easily the biggest occasion Carter would have faced up till that point, given he only played 2 games off the bench at the 03 WC.

And after the O'Driscoll incident the pressure went up tenfold for the Wellington test. Carter responded with the best first five performance of the professional era, maybe of all time.

If Carter was fully fit but failed in 07 then I'd agree with you. But the fact remains that in 03 he was only a fringe selection who barely got on, in 07 he was clearly injured and outside of that 07 tournament, he's been the most dominant 10 in world rugby for the last 6 years.

If I wanted to win a WC I'd pick someone who hasnt spent 5 of the last 6 years out injured.
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:48 pm

Yep I see what you mean, but how much bad luck with injuries can one guy have? The only reason I would take Wilkinson is that he has been there and done that and understands what needs to be done to get his team across the line. I don't believe that Lions team was very good at all, the media hyped them up but when it came down to it, they were very poor
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PostSubject: Re: Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England   Wallabies Grand Slam Tour - Australia V England Icon_minitimeThu Nov 05, 2009 12:12 am

And Carter's never "got his team across the line?" You are being incredibly inconsistent with your arguments and it's really hard to take you seriously as a result.

Not to mention that you seem to be basing your preference of Wilkinson on a single WC game rather than the consistent class shown by Carter. If Wilkinson hadn't been consistently injured in '03 then things may be very different - who knows?

I see I did say he was completely without it - I re-read my post to check and didn't notice it - my bad Smile I meant that he SEEMS to be without - due to him never using it.
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